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04 August 2005 @ 08:11 am
Islam  
Suicide Bombers are Cowards.

A real soldier does not kill unarmed civilians.

Islam has a few mandates. One of them is if you ask a Muslim about what they believe, they must tell you. Most of them are very pleased to do so. It's like doing a Mitzvah in Judaism, or engaging in charity in Catholicism. If you are becoming afraid of Muslims because of what a bunch of Cowards tainting Islam are doing, please find your nearest Muslim and engage in conversation with them.

When I was in Kansas, I heard firsthand of a Jehovah's Witness religious leader who sanctioned a husband beating his wife because she was "not obedient enough". This action is horrible, and Jehovah's Witnesses call themselves Christians, but that leader's actions do not define Christianity. I hope that they do not even define JW, but I've not had much opportunity for interaction with the JW believers.

I would not repeat this story saying, "The Christians sanction beating their wives." It is unfair and untrue.

I consider this to be as ridiculous as associating Muslims with these violent cowards.

If everyone in the world began a campaign today repeating "Suicide Bombers are Cowards" in thousands of languages and places, would it be preventative maintenance for future generations? What takes the wind from the sails of self-righteous cowards?
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VAXhackervaxhacker on August 4th, 2005 05:31 pm (UTC)
All very good points. I don't know a lot about JWs but I can't believe such a thing would be generally indicative of their religion, and would probably be condemned by the majority of them. Or at least I hope so. From what I know about Muslims, the terrorist attacks seem likewise to be done in the name of a religion which would, if it were being practiced and taught true to its founder's principles, reject such actions. But I'm not an expert on Islam. If I want to learn more about Islam, however, I'll do it by asking Muslims, not by asking people already prepared to badmouth their beliefs (whether deserved or not). I've already found plenty of those :)

And I've seen enough questionable things done by members of my own faith that I know full well would be denounced by the religion and church leadership, that I'd not at all want to be seen as what we're all like, so I can sympathize completely.

Kburgunder on August 4th, 2005 05:59 pm (UTC)
Y'know, I'm glad after all these years that I'm finally getting to know you :)
(no subject) - vaxhacker on August 4th, 2005 07:57 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - vaxhacker on August 25th, 2005 11:27 am (UTC) (Expand)
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - ocicat on August 4th, 2005 07:24 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - vaxhacker on August 4th, 2005 08:10 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - vaxhacker on August 4th, 2005 07:52 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - burgunder on August 10th, 2005 12:30 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous) on August 10th, 2005 12:20 am (UTC) (Expand)
King Ratgkr on August 4th, 2005 05:56 pm (UTC)
Not all suicide bombers target civilians.

Think of the Japanese kamikaze pilots in WW2. Many of the Iraqi suicide bombers are targetting Iraqi army installations.
Kburgunder on August 4th, 2005 06:01 pm (UTC)
And recruiting centers. I understand the agenda where that's concerned.

What really lights my candle is the civilian targets and al Qaeda's recent BS statement that such targets "bring it on themselves". The sad thing is, I might not at all disagree with some of the foreign policies that these cowards object to. How they are handling it is not OK thought.
VAXhackervaxhacker on August 4th, 2005 08:15 pm (UTC)
You might be interested in this essay by bradhicks, someone on my FL...:
Brettwakko on August 4th, 2005 09:13 pm (UTC)
My one quibble is that the Bible explicitly espouses violence and cruelty towards others. It does so repeatedly, and profusely. So, in essence, evil IS a very Christian thing to perpetuate.

Examples:

Deuteronomy:

12:27 And thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, the flesh and the blood, upon the altar of the LORD thy God: and the blood of thy sacrifices shall be poured out upon the altar of the LORD thy God, and thou shalt eat the flesh.

Blood sacrifices and eating of flesh.

12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.

Kill those of other faiths. Reject their beliefs and do not learn about them.

Psalms:

2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Murder and slavery of heathens.

110:6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

More judgement and murder of heathens.

Proverbs:

22:15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Beat your children.

Isaiah:

13:3 I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness.
13:4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.
13:5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.

God's followers are out to destroy everything.

Matthew:

13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus will gather up the offensive people and burn them.
VAXhackervaxhacker on August 4th, 2005 10:42 pm (UTC)
The main problem with the Bible, or Koran, or any other similar writing, is how it's interpreted and put into practice by its adherents. The truth is that you can justify practically anything, even wildly opposing points of view by selecting just the right quotes and giving your own particular interpretation of what they mean, particularly if you remove them from the original textual context where they appear, let alone the historical and cultural context from when they were written. In some cases, what would seem barbaric to our culture might represent a philosophy which was remarkably better than the prevailing climate at the time, and perhaps a step toward improving things... but now would be unthinkable to go back to that level.

I would hazard that all but a tiny minority of Christian religions would read those passages and decide to go on a killing rampage or beat their children mercilessly.

I would judge, for example, the evil or good of Christianity based on what the churches are actually teaching and doing, how they are interpreting and implementing those writings, and how the majority respond to the actions of the radical fundamentalist factions which would be inclined to do what you're describing--do they sit by and agree that those things are right, or do they denounce them saying that they stand for peace, love and forgiveness?

VAXhackervaxhacker on August 5th, 2005 01:45 am (UTC)
Whoops.

I would hazard that all but a tiny minority of Christian religions would read those passages and decide to go on a killing rampage or beat their children mercilessly.

Make that none but a tiny minority would do that.

(no subject) - wakko on August 5th, 2005 02:10 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - asterothx on August 5th, 2005 05:20 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - wakko on August 5th, 2005 10:56 am (UTC) (Expand)
AsterothXasterothx on August 5th, 2005 05:04 am (UTC)
With appologies to burgunder
If you were quoting the above to show how a religion can be misquoted and taken out of context, and how that happens to Islam perhaps, I'd have found that appropriate. In that such was not the spirit of the note, and knowing something about Christianity myself, I think a few things need to be said in regard to your quotations.

First, it is important to understand that Christians have to look at the Old Testament carefully, as it was a specific message to a specific people for a specific purpose of God. As we see in the issues surrounding Matthew 19:8 Jesus says:
He saith unto them, Moses for your hardness of heart suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it hath not been so.

The things God instructs through Moses aren't neccesarily the way he'd like things to be, but how he intended to work with the Israelites to make them into a sort of testimony of him. Remeber, he's taking a people who did not know him and shaping them.

Some specific points:
Deuteronomy 12:27 Blood sacrifices and eating of flesh
Make sure to understand this is regarding animals not humans. The act is a mark of unselfishness toward God.

Deuteronomy 12:30 Kill those of other faiths. Reject their beliefs and do not learn about them.
No translation I have of this passage says "Kill those of other faiths."
When it says: after that they are destroyed from before you this refers to the work of God and the consequences of the works of those who reject him, not the Isrealites. And of course God is not going to encourage his people to learn about what to him are nonsense/human made faiths.

The passages above are interpreted with a deliberately hostile heart that looks to see things that are not there. So be it, that's any person's choice.

The New Testament quotation has an important nuance that was missed:
Jesus will gather up the offensive people and burn them
The term offensive isn't quite specific enough. We aren't talking about people that anyone who calls them self a Christian is offended by. The book speaks about creations of God, rejecting their creator, spurning his wisdom and exhortations to "be excellent to each other" and pursuing selfish ends. If the Christian is to accept the premise of God as creator of the entire universe, why should any part of his creation that rejects him and hates him be allowed any favor at all? In fact God is quite patient with the rebellious monkeysMadeFromDirt, all things considered.

In the end, and I suspect Burg might agree, we need to know each person around us for who they are and what they believe, and not lay prejudices upon them as the quotes above lean toward.

If we approach each other with a hostile heart there is no understanding.
Re: With appologies to burgunder - wakko on August 5th, 2005 11:31 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: With appologies to burgunder - burgunder on August 10th, 2005 12:48 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: With appologies to burgunder - burgunder on August 10th, 2005 12:50 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: With appologies to burgunder - wakko on August 10th, 2005 01:29 am (UTC) (Expand)
AsterothXasterothx on August 5th, 2005 05:22 am (UTC)
Agree, discussion to understanding is critical, with each person individually around us.
indie: catindiefic on August 5th, 2005 04:35 pm (UTC)
I do not believe that suicide bombers are cowards.

I believe they are ignorant impressionable people who are used to a most horrible end. I don't think it takes too much to convince a 15 year old boy with absolutely no education, who is most likely illiterate and so very impressionable that dying and going to a paradise afterlife is better than the deplorable existence he is currently living.

There are, of course, the exceptions. Educated, entitled zealots, who I agree, yes, are cowards. But on the whole, I think the bombers tend to be exploited by people who have absolutely no intention of dying for what they preach.
Kburgunder on August 10th, 2005 12:55 am (UTC)
That is a damn good point.

I guess the impetus behind the post is two fold:

1. In my opinion, those responsible for violently targetting any undefended civilian are cowards - and I actually include in that grotesquely long list parents who beat their defenseless kids/animals/etc. and soldiers (including our own) who rape, bomb, torture, etc. civilians.
2. What on Earth can be done to deflate this notion that suicide bombing = paradise afterlife? My first thought was to insist that it was cowardly, but I think that was a 2nd grade knee jerk reaction to being bullied or something like that.
(no subject) - (Anonymous) on August 10th, 2005 01:19 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - indiefic on August 10th, 2005 01:19 am (UTC) (Expand)
kensal on August 6th, 2005 03:42 am (UTC)
carpet bombing a city of an enemy country in the middle of the night (tokyo and london during WWII to cite the most popular example) kills many innocent civilians, and is just as bad as suicide bombing. While we do not consider the "terrorists" (and they are not terrorists - thats just the pop culture word we use to group them) They consider it a war larger than any they ever faced. The Japanese resorted to it - they were just focused upon what was close to harming them (the ships) The Muslim and whatever suicide attacks in Iraq *tend* to hit only military oriented targets.

The suicide attacks in LONDON are on par with the ridiculous attacks at Dance Clubs in ISRAEL. Childish, ignorant, helps nothing, solves nothing, proves nothing. Anyone fighting the "good fight" against whatever western power they hate deplores these attacks because they only enrage their enemies.

at least thats what I would think they would feel. It sure doesn't make any sense to me that killing 50 people on a bus in a country a hemisphere away helps their cause in any sort.

The US in the early stages of WWII took off from Midway island (I believe) with a squadron of bombers, hit the japanese mainland with their payload and crashlanded into China losing most of their planes, and not doing an incredible amount of damage. *but* they did show that Japan was NOT out of their reach.

Perhaps AL Queida (european edition) is trying to do the same thing?

Kburgunder on August 10th, 2005 12:57 am (UTC)
I totally agree that carpet bombing is just as bad.

And I think Tom Clancy said it best....

What's the different between a patriot and a terrorist?
Who's side you're on.