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29 November 2005 @ 07:38 pm
Heart-Shaped Paradox  
Through experience, I've come to accept these cliches:

You can't love anyone until you love yourself.
You can't change anyone. They can only change themselves.

What happens if you love someone who doesn't love themselves?
Current Mood: quixoticquixotic
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Kburgunder on November 30th, 2005 04:12 am (UTC)
Once upon a time, I was the perfect picture of self-loathing. I didn't get the first cliche at all. I thought, ironically, that to really love someone I had to put them and their needs above me and mine. This notion kept me in a place where I was constantly insecure and in need of reassurance.

I've since learned that the only way to be a delight rather than a burden in a relationship is to put me first.

I was raised on a healthy recipe of martyr fairy tales - Victor Hugo, the Little Mermaid (the original, not the sugar-coated Disney version), all kinds of people sacrificing themselves for love and breaking my heart. I thought I had to break my heart to love someone.

Read any good books or fairy tales that aren't about broken codependents? I have so little patience left for lovey radio shows because the lyrics are so often scary ass broken! Police's "Everything Breath You Take" is such a great example ... love song, my lily white ass! Stalker's Creed, more like!
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Kburgunder on November 30th, 2005 04:03 am (UTC)
This made me think of Cry to Heaven by Anne Rice.

It's about the Castrati, and I think you've outlined the plot fairly well, smirk.
Deirdreevillinn on November 30th, 2005 04:00 am (UTC)
"What happens if you love someone who doesn't love themselves?"

Their fear, insecurity, doubts and inability to develop in certain ways will always over-shadow whatever love may be there. And chances would be that the love is horribly disfigured in any number of ways.
__m_ on November 30th, 2005 04:16 am (UTC)
That is exactly what I was going to say, only more elegant.
Deirdreevillinn on November 30th, 2005 04:45 am (UTC)
dude. its 'cause we're freakin' brilliant.
__m_ on November 30th, 2005 04:46 am (UTC)
This is a fact that cannot be argued.
Kburgunder on November 30th, 2005 04:18 am (UTC)
This is going to seem totally unrelated, but I promise I'll explain next time we get together - when I first started doing all the stinky exercises in Codependent No More, I initially got almost 0 points for Angry. It wasn't until months later that suddenly I started racking up points for Angry - because I'd finally slimmed down my negative Denial and Repression tendencies enough to just start to see the tip of the repressed-insensed-anger iceberg.
Deirdreevillinn on November 30th, 2005 04:45 am (UTC)
welllll....you've at least piqued my curiosity. heh.

eager to know the connection.
Diana: thoughtfulartvixn on November 30th, 2005 04:05 am (UTC)
"What happens if you love someone who doesn't love themselves?"

Pain. Lots of it. At least that's what I found. I'm so sorry.
Kburgunder on November 30th, 2005 04:14 am (UTC)
But, at the end of the day, there was nothing you could do, right?

That's a beautiful avatar of you.
Diana: thoughtfulartvixn on November 30th, 2005 04:31 am (UTC)
Yea. It tore me apart to admit. It's so hard not to think you can make things work somehow. You're ahead of the game if you see that early. I tended to do the loyal to the end martyr thing, but I learned.

Thanks. It's a very old picture, from back in my modeling days, but it conveys the feeling nicely.
Khirilkhiril on November 30th, 2005 05:34 am (UTC)
I said this already on SeaGoth, but...

Well, doing the math, it seems that that person can't love you, and there's nothing that you can do about it.

That's some depressing shit.

I'd like to find a way to disprove this, but I lack the experience to make a really good argument. In fact, my limited experience would seem to support it.

I don't know if I'd be able to stop myself from trying to do something about it, no matter how little sense it makes.
Satan's Tilt-A-Whirlsavannarama on November 30th, 2005 05:53 am (UTC)
What happens if you love someone who doesn't love themselves?

I think this should call into question whether the One who Loves the Self-Loather really loves themselves to begin with. I think there is something unaddressed in both parties.

I really like what evillinn had to say.
Kburgunder on November 30th, 2005 07:07 pm (UTC)
If only Self-Loather came tattooed on people's foreheads... it's amazing how well some people hide it.
ktnzgtklwsktnzgtklws on December 1st, 2005 02:13 am (UTC)
I've always thought that more people are self-loathers than people realize. Brings a whole new meaning of the term "Do unto others as you would do unto you," then, doesn't it? They're so tied up in harming themselves, it's a small wonder they inflict so much pain on those around them. :-(
Sarah: Nakeysarmonster on November 30th, 2005 06:48 am (UTC)
You deal with insecurity. Everyone needs someone, something to love. A man in solitary confinement will find an ant to love. Know the behavior associated with these problems & how to deal with them.
It either works out or it doesn't. Either way, its an educational experience.
Lawstlawst on November 30th, 2005 05:55 pm (UTC)
What happens if you love someone who doesn't love themselves?

You spend a lot of time trying to convince them that you really do love them only to hear all the reasons you should not. You spend a lot ot time trying to convince yourself that they will change if you can love them just a little bit more. The more energy you put into the love, the more energy the other person will put into not accepting it. There's a chance they'll pull out, a slim chance. It drains the lover, it sucks away the self-confidance, it pulls the lover into the same pit of despair wondering why the person they love cannot see that they're worth it. It also brings on self-doubt and anger, and questions like "Am I not good enough?"

Everyone has insecurities...some people find their security in their insecurities. It's protection. If you've got yourself convinced that you are unworthy of love, then you don't have to worry about ever getting hurt.
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Vulture: egyptianvulture23 on November 30th, 2005 06:37 pm (UTC)
"If you've got yourself convinced that you are unworthy of love, then you don't have to worry about ever getting hurt."

So true. "I am unworthy of love, so it's no surprise if X doesn't love me / betrays me" contains much less risk than being open to love. Less reward as well, of course, but it's surprisingly easy to slip into pathological risk-aversion...
kensal on November 30th, 2005 07:49 pm (UTC)
you get burnt bad. They use you for self fufillment and drop you when it no longer works.
Brettwakko on December 1st, 2005 02:02 am (UTC)
Simple. In fact, so simple that many people don't think of it.

Your feelings do not need to be dependant upon the other person.

You can love someone and still allow them to live their own lives.

Sometimes the most loving thing you can do for a person is tell them, "I care about you, but your choices are not something that I can be a part of. This does not change my love for you. I do this BECAUSE I care, not in spite of it."
Deborahoracle2c on January 7th, 2006 02:16 am (UTC)
Lj hopping lead me to this thread.

"What happens if you love someone who doesn't love themselves?"

I had a ten year relationship with someone recently end and one of the main reasons was because they could not love themselves. It was heart wrenchingly difficult. It cost me a lot as a person to constantly reassure them. Trust is the real issue as they are unable to believe in someone else or themselves. In the end, it made no difference how much reassurance there was, they are simply broken and unable to love back in a healthy way, at least at this point in their life. I still love them with all my heart and it's very sad to watch so much good be lost for such a sad reason.